All right. Back on to Jake Yugar and Jordan Newell with you guys. So yesterday Anna and I did a segment like this where we're talking about the direction of tight, etc.. Jordan's a radical. Okay. Total extremist. So we're going to have a conversation with one of these loons. [00:00:17] Okay. We're off to a great start. Okay. I'm just playing. I'm playing. So, Jordan is to the left of me on some issues, whatever the left means in that context. But that's what we're going to talk about. And he's going to ask me a bunch of questions. I'm going to try to read some of your comments that came in today and yesterday. We saved some of your comments from yesterday. [00:00:33] I wish I could get to more, but I want to start with one comment that just came in because I thought it was really interesting. I wish a dragon would wrote in your favorite former hate watcher here. I've been a member for nearly seven years now. I wanted to chime in again regarding addressing your critics from the left. [00:00:50] I want to be honest and say I'm on Team Mondale, considering the threat he's received and how some of these folks treat me in Nebraska. I get just as angry. Hold that. Just makes me. And he has in brackets and Mondale not the right person to reach out [00:01:07] and try to find common ground. We need folks like you and Anna and Jordan Jackson, everyone who who can build toward finding common ground to hold the establishment accountable instead of canceling. Well, I haven't figured out how to upgrade to premium membership, so I donated $150 and will be gifting memberships starting in 2025. [00:01:27] Be that voice for those of us that are too angry to do it sometimes. So that's a beautiful comment. And look that I said yesterday. Mondale wasn't like the others. He like he had this genuine thing where he was really mad about it. [00:01:43] I don't agree with him at all. And I thought he went, I thought he should have called me. ET cetera. Right. But I didn't see any bad faith at all. And I know, given what has happened to him in the past, I understand why he's more worried. Right. And you make a really good point. And guys, remember, I'm Muslim and I've been threatened many, many times [00:02:01] right by right wingers, by like people that representing Israel have called me parasite a couple of times. My name was put on an IDF bomb. I know what it feels like to be threatened, but I'm trying to find the best strategy to help all of us, right? [00:02:16] So if I get too worried and I and I say, okay, no, I'm, I'm just going to resort to to hating the other side or to not talking to the other side, that's not necessarily going to help anyone. It's normal, I get it, I get it as a reaction. [00:02:32] Right? So that's why I loved your comment, because it acknowledges both sides, right? That if you've had a terrible interaction with either right wingers or racist or whoever it might be that it's hard to get past that. So I get it right. [00:02:47] But you're right that it's my job to get past it so that we can get to what I think and hope is the best strategy. So thank you for writing in so many more. I love it, but I know Jordan wants to ask some questions to or have this conversation. Yeah, well, you know, I think a lot of the criticism that you [00:03:08] and Anna and the network overall have gotten it to some extent has been you guys going on right wing shows. There have been other people who have been critical of how you've talked about which policy is the right policy on issues like policing. [00:03:24] You and I have had the debate over what is the best way to tackle just the general problem and all of the, like, all the different facets of policing in this country. And then there have been people who have been upset with how you two have covered the trans issue. [00:03:39] So I think what people sometimes miss in this, but I also do want to hear like hash it out. Do you think that it's fair for people who have these criticisms of your policy stances, and then also see you going on right wing networks? [00:03:56] Do you think it's. I mean, I think that there are well-meaning folks who see all of those things and think, well, they're clearly talking to the right because we have seen people do that in the past. Yeah, that's a great point. And so I think I addressed this on another show. That's why I wanted to do it on this show. Right. So look, guys, if you say, I see that you guys had some what I [00:04:17] think is small disagreements, but maybe you think it's big disagreements on some on the trans stuff. It was so minor. It's just about like professional leagues and being called a woman. But. Okay, but do you think you think it's major on crime? It's a little bit more significant. There's a lot of folks like someone who wrote in earlier [00:04:33] thinking it's just crime panic and you're going for a right wing narrative, etc. It's just it's not we showed you the statistics, but that's okay. It's a normal disagreement. But you see that. And to Jordan's point and then you see me going on right wing shows, you go, wait a minute. [00:04:48] And there is a phenomenon calling pulling a Rubin. Right. And so and you've seen Rubin do it and you've seen Tulsi Gabbard do it and you've seen others do it. So I get being concerned like, whoa, whoa, whoa. But you've got to then go, okay. [00:05:04] Yes. But what happened next? Did they actually pull a Rubin or were they doing something else? Right. So number one, if you say, hey, any disagreement is is unacceptable, well, then we're just not going to agree, right? Because I could do likewise. [00:05:20] And in fact, that would be terrible if I did. Likewise if I said, hey, you know what? Jordan disagrees with that. That's it. They get him off the air, which is what MSNBC does, which is what CNN does, which is what Fox News does. Right. And so but we don't do that because we want disagreement here. It's okay. So what's the difference between a normal disagreement and the kind of weirdo fights [00:05:38] that have broken out online? Because some people aren't trying to have a conversation where we get to the right answer, hey, what should be the right policy on crime? They're trying to attract attention. And that's why I'm saying bad faith by not only saying that what we're saying is not acceptable. [00:05:56] Like, well, who determines what's acceptable? Why do you get to determine it? Right. But on top of that, they're saying, well, then we know that there are already right wingers and we know they're going to do X, Y, and Z. But did we? So when I go on the right wing shows, do I go, oh my God, I love corporate tax cuts. [00:06:12] Now if I do you should throw me all the way under a bus, right? No, I tell them the same thing that I tell you guys. Right. So I defend Social Security, I. I got Tim polls show to go. Oh. Paid family leave. Maybe Patrick bet David pulled his audience. 75% of his audience [00:06:31] said yes to paid family leave. Which other person went on a right wing show and got 75% of their audience to agree to a progressive position? So if you say no, don't, don't still. No, I don't want you talking to them, I hate it. Okay. [00:06:46] Again we disagree. That's okay. So it matters. Like so what did Dave Rubin do instead. So he would go on Tucker Carlson. Did you ever see him once disagree with Tucker Carlson? Never. Right. And then the famous incident that I mentioned on Piers Morgan earlier in the week where he, [00:07:02] there was these forest fires and Trump was talking about, you know, raking the the forest and all the fun stuff. And, and Dave Rubin went on and said the problem is diversity. They're allowing gay firefighters. And so why do they do that? Because they want someone who's gay to throw gay people under a bus. [00:07:21] Right. And then the guys that I loathe the most are like the Muslim guys. Who are the reformers? They're actually reformers in Islam, by the way. I went from I'm atheist, right. Like, I'm totally open to that reform conversation, right? And I'm totally against violence, etc.. [00:07:37] No, these are stooges who are paid basically by Israel to go and go, oh, well, you know, I'll tell you the real problem, Bill, because they're always talking to Bill Maher is the Muslim culture is a real problem. It's a, you know, you know, it's a lot of violence. Oh my God. [00:07:52] Have you read the Koran is the worst, they said. Come on guys. Right. So we're not doing any of that. And so one of the things that I went on the right wing shows to do is, hey, is there anything that we can accomplish while Trump is in office? So. Or we could just give up and go, okay, I think it's going to be 100% disaster. [00:08:10] We can't get anything. But the guy likes to be popular. And if it turns out the right wing populists say, hey, you know what? Again, I start with something simple like pardon Edward Snowden. I mean, we want to pardon Edward Snowden. And it turns out, oh my God, they want to pardon Edward Snowden. [00:08:25] So why don't we pardon Edward Snowden? It's like the tiniest little victory. But why not try for victories that we all agree on instead of just giving up and going, okay, let's just hate them. And how is hating them an effective strategy? And no one has ever explained that by the way they say, oh no, [00:08:42] we think you're going to be a right wing. In fact, they don't say that. They say they are right wingers. They are right. And so, Jordan, I said this yesterday like proof's in the pudding. Right. So if we turn right wing. Okay, then they were right. And you guys go watch Silly and Billy and go crazy and never hear anything about [00:08:58] policy at all ever again, etc., right. But if it turns out they were wrong, I hope that you hold them accountable and go, hey, you guys told me they were already right wingers, but I watched and it looks like they're not right wing at all. They're they're saying the same exact things they said before. [00:09:14] And guys, remember, none of this happened after the election. Whatever the disagreements are has been going on for two years at a minimum. Right. So and if there is no disagreement within a party, you're not in a party, you're in an authoritarian cult. And by the way, remember, that's what the establishment agrees to [00:09:30] to no disagreements allowed. We anoint and you bow your heads. I'm not doing that for the establishment. I'm not doing that for anyone on the far left or whatever you want to call it. I'm not doing that for the right wing. I'm not doing it. Period. Yeah, well. I think one thing everyone should think about is, [00:09:47] and we saw this in Bernie's message over the past eight, ten years, right? The underlying uniting force in this country is class. We all can recognize that. That's why you're also seeing a bipartisan wave of sympathy, [00:10:02] or even acknowledgment of why Luigi Mangione allegedly did what he did. There's a common unifying thing. And I think one thing I like about this network is you're not defining everyone by identity, because that isn't a unifying thing. [00:10:18] It's a divisive thing, especially when it's exploited by corporate interests. So I think when you acknowledge that you are a progressive, you were with Bernie and you liked his class message. Shouldn't you also want to then continue to try to reach out to those people [00:10:33] along class lines? Something to think about, but not off the hook yet. So I think the way you talk about it, because the way you talk about this sometimes I think is damaging and undercuts what you're trying to do. But I know you're trying to do right. And you did. You kind of I know you're joking, but you're like, oh, he's a radical. [00:10:50] You have used the term extreme left to describe a broad swath of people in policy conversations, and I think a lot of well-meaning people who might identify with some of those policy conversations might think like, well, I'm not extreme. [00:11:05] Like, this is pragmatic. You look at like the Nordic models, you look at many parts of Europe like these are they've got some of these things, you know, we don't see these culture fights elsewhere. Right. So I think that can be unhelpful when you're talking about people who are probably ultimately 99% of the time on your side and might just have [00:11:22] questions about what you're doing. So I'm wondering if that is the best way to go about talking about some of these policies. - Okay. - So that's you're fired. No, seriously, that's a good question. [00:11:38] So Jordan, I want to ask you a question in return in a second. But so first look, there's two different things right. There is positions that are Further left. How would you define that? Than me? And we've got to find a term for it that is not offensive. [00:11:54] Do we need a term for it? We do. We do. So? So. Okay, let me handle that first and then we'll get back to the term. So why do we need it. I think we need it for a clarity and B political reasons. Okay. So now again some of you might totally disagree here. But when you say progressive now people think defund the police [00:12:16] abolish Ice, free trans surgeries for, undocumented detainees, etc.. So they don't think paid family leave, Medicare for all, a higher minimum wage. We've we've lost the economic message that is so overwhelmingly popular [00:12:35] and that is so desperately needed. And I know that the right wing focused on the most unpopular positions we have on purpose. But my point was, but don't help them by falling into that trap and and saying, okay, now that's it. The progressive banner is undocumented detainees all get free surgeries, [00:12:53] hip surgeries, trans surgeries, you know, whatever it might be. So those are very unpopular positions. And I don't happen to agree with them. I'm with. So if you want to call me a more moderate on that no problem. No problem. [00:13:08] Look, and I explain there's two different political spectrums. There's the left right one where if you say you're not the most left, you're right. Right. I'm, I'm not saying moderates become such a terrible word. These words matter, right. Because moderate used to mean a normal person that's in the middle of the country. [00:13:24] But mainstream media turned moderate into corporate douchebag, right? So now if you call yourself a moderate, people are like, oh, okay, which corporation do you represent? Right. So but there are people who are actually closer to the center, right? So am I center left? Hell yeah. [00:13:39] I'm on the left. There's no there's not even within a as any right winger as any mainstream person, as any established person. We're on the left. But am I as far as some others? No, I'm not. But on the populist establishment spectrum, I'm all the way at the end. I'm an extreme populist. And I say that and I say it proudly. [00:13:58] Right. And so and we had somebody on our operation Hope Town Hall on Wednesday say, I bought woke left org and Radical left.org because I'm so proud of it. Yeah right God bless. That's great. Right. But if we get defined as the positions that are the most unpopular, [00:14:16] we cannot win. So I need to define us in in a different light now. Otherwise we're all the babies going to get thrown out with the bathwater. And so I don't want that to be honest. And and besides which I don't agree. So if I say okay I'm a proud whatever. Right. [00:14:34] And then people are going to go, oh okay. So you agree to all these positions. No, I don't agree to those positions. So it's misleading as well. So Jordan, the question I wanted to ask back is what's the best term to use? Because we're not we don't agree. Like there's some issues. [00:14:50] I don't think there's a lot of issues and I think it's overhyped how much we disagree, but there is some disagreement. So how do I refer to that disagreement? Do you see what I'm saying? How do I refer to the folks that that we disagree with. So here sorry before you answer, but think about it. [00:15:07] I want to give you one more example. So on on gun control I'm extreme left. Right. I have a position that to your point, in Europe and other parts of the world, Japan is perfectly normal. But in America it's totally, practically politically undoable, which is I think [00:15:25] you should be able to have a gun, but it needs to be in a safe locker outside of your house in a controlled area. That's exactly what Japan does. Okay? And so if you want to go hunting, you go get your gun from the locker. ET cetera. But no one has guns, so they have zero gun homicides. [00:15:41] We have 60,000 gun homicides. But I know I'm not going to win on that. Right? But if you say to me, within the American political spectrum, you're extreme left on that issue, I say, yeah, that's right, I am right. So I'm not offended by that. That's just on that issue. That's who I am. Right? [00:15:57] So if you call me radical left on that, I probably wouldn't like that because I'm like, I don't think it's a radical position. The rest of the world does it, and etc.. So that's why let's pick a word that makes sense. Yeah, I don't know, I understand I understand why you think [00:16:14] there should be more accurate labels. I think the, the words that you have used in these conversations have been unhelpful because people might see them as a pejorative, extreme max radical. Some people, of course, there are some people who take that up proudly. Right? But I think too many well-meaning people who aren't familiar [00:16:34] with what you're talking about. Right? They might see that as a slight or an insult. So I think that's a little unhelpful for me personally, what term I would call myself, I don't know. When I was younger, I was, oh yeah, I'm a liberal. Then I was a progressive, then I was a leftist, and now it's like, I don't care. [00:16:52] Like I want certain policy outcomes. I will do whatever I can to contribute to that work. And if it happens, great. And if it's unpopular, I don't care because it's what I believe in. There are people who make their political identity a label proudly. [00:17:09] And to what I see, the extent of their activism is just correcting people and saying, I'm not a liberal, I'm a leftist. Congrats man. I just like I think it's all hollow. It's it's a lot of it's performative. I'd like to see a multi-party system where maybe I do have a label [00:17:25] and a party that fits into it. But I think in our current system, a lot of that's subjective and people could misinterpret it. So I think it's I do think it's undercutting what you, I know you're trying to do, and I don't think it's the most useful. Yeah, I hear you. And that's another fine disagreement to have because I need to distinguish it. [00:17:41] If I don't distinguish it, We're all in the same boat with the most unpopular. And in fact, again, back to the gun control example I would like if I'm talking about it, I'd say, look, I let's say I'm on a right wing show or a mainstream media show or something. I'd say, yeah, I'm extreme left on that on gun control, but I know I'm not going to win. [00:17:58] And why do I say that about my own position? Because I don't want to hurt the rest of the party, the rest of the movement by attaching a super unpopular position, right or wrong? Obviously, I think it's right. It's my position. It works for the rest of the world. Right? And so but I don't want to attach that unpopular position [00:18:16] to paid family leave and Medicare for all. Do you see what I'm saying? So. But that requires a little bit of, you know, recognition of like of what your positions are and what's popular and what's not popular and like it when, [00:18:32] you know, justice Democrats ousted me. And there I could have caught a lot of feelings, right? And I could have said, screw these guys. And I could have said, don't donate to them, don't help them, and I didn't. I said, eyes on the prize. We got to. They got to get elected so we could win on policy. [00:18:48] Right. And so do you see the others doing eyes on the prize guys? Let's make sure we win so we can win on policy so your lives can improve. Or do you see a lot of I'm better than him, I'm more pure, etc.. And then I was using Max laughs. I was trying that one. [00:19:04] And then I got pissed and I went back to radical left. And the reason is because the guys who are making those, the bad faith arguments, they are radicals. They're saying, if you don't agree with me 100%, you shouldn't even be allowed to talk. You shouldn't be allowed to have that frickin opinion. [00:19:21] And you should. And you're definitely a right winger and you're right, racist and all these other things that's so extreme and radical as a way of conducting yourself. Right? So but I but I hear you, I'll walk that back. Well, I also don't want to discount that. Then there were people who were angry. [00:19:37] Yeah. Let's let's take the trans issue. I think that's one where, like, you and I definitely don't agree. Right? I think there's like I know there's like the core rights. I think you're on board with. I would hope so. Yeah, 100%. But then there's other things like you're like the extremely [00:19:53] like politically unpopular things. Right. So this wasn't her like campaign and Trump. It was his policy. But it became a lightning rod issue. The gender affirming care for undocumented people. You know, it's like a buzzword of all these things that are just designed [00:20:09] to trigger, like the independent or moderate or Republican voter. I don't care about that. You know, it's just like, and I think if you're going to go out at a time where you know, it's going to get even worse for trans people, and you have people like Matt Walsh in front of the Supreme Court saying, [00:20:26] like, we're not going to stop until we erase all of trans existence. Now, I'm not saying you're on that side. I'm saying at a moment like this where it gets really difficult and it's going to get harder for people, I think a lot of people are concerned and wondering why even talk [00:20:41] about things like this that aren't even really up for debate right now? Because it could just play into the right's hand. So a couple of things about that. Number one, it's funny that you mentioned Matt Walsh because I tore into him on that exact issue on that speech about the Supreme Court because like, okay, [00:20:59] so you went from pretending that it was only about these like professional sports or high school sports to all of a sudden you want to erase all trans people, right? So I told you the radical right actually hates trans people. And this is all a way of riling up hatred against the trans. [00:21:16] And so that Matt Walsh is like, see, John Cougar is not on the right. I'm like, I told you, I told you I'm not on the right, you knucklehead. Right. And they're like, oh, and then some right wingers are like, oh, Matt Walsh own you. I'm like, own me for what? Yes, I own me by stating my opinion correctly. [00:21:33] I'm not in favor. Matt Walsh is a douche extraordinaire. Nair. Okay, as bad as it gets, but but guys. So like when I go on the right wing shows Jordan and you, you can see this on trigonometry and a couple of other shows where we got into this conversation. [00:21:48] I go, hey, listen guys, I agree with you on the professional sports. Right? And then they go like, oh okay, good good good. Right. And so some people might hate that. Then I go, but you guys agree that trans should have same constitutional rights as any American right to employment, to health care, to housing. [00:22:04] And they go, oh yeah, yeah. Of course constitutional rights. So they're all they get. Tons of right wing hosts have now said because of those conversations. Well of course constitutional rights. Yeah that makes sense. Which other left wing host got a bunch of right wing hosts to say yeah of course. [00:22:20] Trans constitutional rights. Right. So that doesn't mean they became angels overnight. That doesn't mean they're going to let go of this issue. Then we get into a debate about high school sports, because I'm on the extreme left on high school sports, right. Because I said, what are you going to do, check their genitalia? [00:22:36] So you're going to find seven kids. Kid. They're like, what if your daughter was in second place? I was like, wow, I didn't don't hurt her. She got second place in cross country or she'll never recover. Right. Like because of that happening 13 times, you want to check [00:22:51] millions of kids genitalia, right? So look, guys, if that's too, like, if you think that's not left wing enough, do you get Jordan that we're like, that is the most benign disagreement there is or do you think. [00:23:10] No. That's hurting trans people. That's just an unacceptable that leads to trans suicides. No, no, no I know I don't think you've led to any suicides. I think that's ridiculous. But I think the point is, like on the issues where you do break [00:23:26] from them, what's the utility? Okay. The utility. Good question. But that's the debate you and I had after the election about the ad, right. That ad was considered the most successful ad. - And we're going to. - Rehash it, not. Just okay, no, just just hear me out though. By not just by the Trump team, but also by the Kamala Harris team. [00:23:43] So you guys say, yeah, but I don't believe it or something. Right. And but my point is, okay, even if let's get past the debate of whether it was like, what if you were convinced that it was effective, would you [00:23:59] still say, nope, let's lose the election? Well, no, here's here's this is something I did want to raise. So I think this is a Segway. You people have looked to you in this network for years because of progressive ideals. And, you know, you started Justice Democrats and you've done wolf-pac [00:24:17] and you've done many other things because you see long term goals. And I think with this topic and issues of police reform, those you couch in past electoral losses, and I think people are confused how someone who we have looked to for [00:24:35] years and has talked about these things in fighting for them because they are the right thing to do. Suddenly the line is drawn here. Well, we've lost before on these things. They're unpopular. We've got to discard them. I think people are wondering, why don't we keep fighting for them [00:24:51] and make them popular? Because by that same logic, Bernie lost electorally twice. Why do we still support him? No. Well, first of all, he didn't lose because he lost the voters. He lost because the mainstream media absolutely nuked him. But you don't. Think they're doing the same thing for these topics? No, I don't, because, look, remember, I'm not doing that [00:25:10] out of political convenience. I don't agree. So for example, on the surgeries. Listen, brother, you come into this country undocumented. I want to protect your rights. I want to make sure you get an asylum hearing, etc., okay? And if your kid's a dreamer, I want to protect them. ET cetera, et cetera. [00:25:26] But you can't come into this country, and then you demand surgery. No, no, I don't care if it's any kind of surgery. It's not a common problem. Listen. And that's what we talked about in our discussion when we had Jules on and we were arguing about that. Look, you also want Medicare for all that would cover that. [00:25:41] So Jordan, that's a great argument. Okay. And that's a good debate to have. But so let's talk about the layers right. So number one, I'm not throwing my policy positions under a bus for electoral convenience because those are not my policy positions. I agree with the majority of the American people [00:25:57] on those ones that are really far left. Okay. Whatever term we want to use. Okay. Number two, they're not core constitutional rights. Okay. So I fought for gay marriage when it was very unpopular. Okay. Why? It's a core constitutional right. [00:26:12] Are we equal or are we not equal? Okay. So if they say trans people can't get married, they can't do this. They can't do that. Hell, no. We're going to fight tooth and nail. Okay. Because core constitutional rights. We're not throwing black people under the bus. We're not throwing trans people under the bus, etc. But if you say no, I, you know, I, [00:26:32] I don't even want to get into the labels? Oh my God. It's like because, like, guys, you have no idea. So look, Jordan, let me put it this way on this quick tangent here, that legendary Anna tweet, that of like, hey, I want to be called a woman instead of a birthing person. First of all, I have seen birthing person at the doctor's office. [00:26:52] They started saying instead of women birthing person. So that tweet, when you show it to any non far leftist or anyone on the left because like I know I'm on the left, I'm not far left, but I know that that's going to that could trigger some people. [00:27:09] Right. But if you're not in that category for 98% of Americans, they're like, I don't understand what's wrong with this tweet. She says she's totally okay with you being called a birthing person. She just liked to be called a woman. Like, if you don't get that, that seems enormously obvious to 98% of Americans. [00:27:30] You might be in a bubble. You see what I'm saying? You're in this bubble and you think like, no, everybody, you know, like this is an outrage. That is not an outrage. And so if you don't get that, that's not an outrage. You're going to lose all the elections. You're going to lose them. All right. And so and and if you say, hey, I'm going to lose them, even though it's [00:27:48] not a constitutional right, by the way, to be called a birthing person. But she says, and I say, you can be called a birthing person, okay. But just you shouldn't call women in general a birthing people because that's I'm sorry, but I want to say that's crazy. That's what everybody thinks is crazy, right? [00:28:05] How do you not see it? So anyways, it's just so it's not just for electoral stuff. It's like are are we are we fighting for core constitutional stuff or are we fighting for fringe issues like like like like you can take my gun control example. I'm not going to die on that hill in an election. [00:28:23] If they're running that ad. You know what I would do? If that was my position, I'd say I withdraw it, okay, I withdraw it because I'm not going to win on it anyway. I mean, look, And by the way, I've lived all of these, right. So Bernie endorsed me in, in 2020, and then it looked like it was going [00:28:40] to cause him a lot of trouble. Right? Because of the way that I got smeared. Now, it was enormously unfair, right? I remember you remember, I remember the New York Times had like, literally a half a dozen outrageous lies about me, including me being anti-Muslim. Okay. [00:28:56] Okay. So now what did I do? I, I called Bernie and said, withdraw your endorsement. Okay. Because if you're going to hurt the movement, you've got a responsibility to say, yeah, that's my position. I'll fight for it on another day, okay? And I'll fight for it in another way. [00:29:14] Right. But let's not sink the entire ship, because I don't want 98% of my positions. I want 100% of my positions. Yeah. So that's my thought. I mean, everyone's going to advocate for their entire the entirety of their beliefs, right? [00:29:29] So I don't I don't I think it's unfair to characterize people who just be. Maybe you see it as a fringe issue. They're fighting for it because that's what they believe in. I don't think that makes them crazy. Right. And I think if people want to. Know, know, know. And that's right. So but that's a huge distinction, Jordan. [00:29:44] You fight for it. I don't think you're crazy at all. Tons of people that we talk to fight for. Francesca fights me on it. John sometimes fights me on and on and on and on. That's not crazy at all. That's normal political discourse, right? But when you say no, you're not allowed to disagree with me. That makes you a right winger. That's crazy. [00:30:01] When you say, hey, let's take the most fringe issue we have and allow it to become the central issue of election. That's not helpful. I would argue it wasn't the central issue, it was it was a big ad near the end of the campaign. [00:30:17] But when you look at polling, poll after poll after poll shows, the the most effective topic throughout the campaign was the economy. So and I think it goes back to a question of utility. And by the way, yeah, just real quick on that, Jordan, as I clarified before, look, I don't think that that cost us the election. [00:30:36] I think that the fact that she surrounded herself with the corporate CEOs and Liz Cheney, etc., was that she abandoned the populist message she had in the beginning and went to a total establishment, pro-corporate position. That's what cost us the election. But that ad didn't help, that's all. [00:30:52] Yeah, okay. We disagree on that. Yeah. We might we don't need to rehash. There's a there's an entire like 30 minute YouTube video of us arguing about it. If you really want to know how we feel. That's true. That's true. I think we're already over. I can't believe we're over. Yeah. - They didn't get to any of these. - No, but there is one more. [00:31:07] And maybe we could pick it up on Monday or something. So I think you're talking about labels, and a lot of people have looked at TYT as the home of the progressives. Right. And you're now saying, well, maybe I'm like over here on some of these issues now, maybe I don't I don't know where I fit. [00:31:23] So do you think that also feeds into. Not now Jordan. What do you mean? Like when Defund the Police came out, I said, that's a terrible slogan. Right. I didn't wait till later. Right. When Latin X came out, I said, that's a terrible word because I'm not afraid to state my opinions. [00:31:38] I affirmative action. I've said for 20 straight years I it was necessary in the beginning, but I think it's doing damage now. I've had the courage of those convictions all throughout. So those things didn't change. Just to be clear. Yes, yes, yes. So I think do you think even though it [00:31:57] has spread out and the reactions were in real time, you know, now people are looking at a cumulative compilation of these stances and people doubt this. I mean, you're kind of distance yourself a little bit from that term and that label. [00:32:14] I mean, I think that could also feed into why people think you're moving, right. How would you respond to that? Because this is from a super chat. Yeah. So look, progressive I. Progressive used to mean Bernie Sanders 2016. [00:32:30] Right. And all the issues that we all agreed to. And then and then Justice Democrats came around and certainly they were progressive. And again, I was not only one of the co-founders. I named the group right. And you saw Ro Khanna on here declare himself a Justice Democrat. [00:32:46] And that's how it got started. Right. And so but then the squad went in a direction where I was. I tried to stop it. I was like, stick with the super popular positions so we can get more justice Democrats in. And so we could primary more of these establishment incumbents so we could take [00:33:05] over and actually get these bills passed that are enormously popular, but being blocked by the corporate establishment. Right. But so when they went in to defund the police direction and actually began during the campaign, and to be fair to AOC, she went with abolish, Abolish Ice. [00:33:20] And I thought that was a bad idea. But I didn't run the campaign. She did, and it worked for her. She actually used it really effectively against Crowley in a debate. So when I see something that I don't agree with work, I acknowledge it right away. She busted him up in that debate on abolish Ice. [00:33:36] Okay, so I but overall on the national scene. Abolish Ice is a terrible slogan. Like and what people say is no, no, no, no, we're not stopping people from having any border patrol. We're just going to redirect it to another agency. But then why did you name it abolish Ice? [00:33:52] Because people then think that there are no borders. Right. So like don't do that. It's not helpful. And so then it became more of those positions that I think are far left that everybody started associating with progressive. So when you ask somebody what's progressive, they would go trans people [00:34:09] playing in professional sports and abolishing Ice and defunding police, etc. I'm like, well, brother, we lost the thread, right? We lost the plot. So what I would love to do and and I often call myself a progressive populist now. [00:34:26] Okay. Because I'm trying to resuscitate, in my opinion, the word progressive because it means so many wonderful things that I want to get back to. Right. I'm adding populist as a distinction between, like the the far left social issues and the economic issues that unite everybody. [00:34:45] Yeah. Yeah. No. Right. Look, we're not going to agree. And that's. You're fired. Yeah. But it's like I asked. A couple of friends who have, like, asked me questions over the past few months, like what's happening there? It's like, do you guys have anything? What do you think I should ask him? [00:35:00] Because I told him this is going to happen tonight. And the first question was, oh, are you is it going to be any retaliation for certain questions? - And it's like, no. - That's what drives me crazy. Like it's now this is my 18th time saying it. I'll say it one last time, a couple of things, and then we really got to go. [00:35:17] So is guys. There's nothing wrong with disagreement. Nothing. If we shut down disagreement, then we become authoritarian. Okay that I'm saying the exact opposite. Do not shut down disagreement. Do not just say. And they say. Oh, well, you're using far left or whatever as a pejorative. [00:35:35] Brother, you called me a right winger for a 2% disagreement. So who's using the wrong labels? Right? So. And to me, the bad faith, lying about how they're already right wing and they're, you know, all that stuff, that, to me, disqualifies the person from having a legitimate conversation [00:35:53] because then you're not trying to have an honest disagreement. You're trying to have a dishonest disagreement. Right? People need to recognize the incentives that come along with the laziest and most bad faith interpretation of disagreements online, especially in a creator economy. [00:36:09] It's out there. It's people. It's the incentives are clear. You know what they are, and you know why people do what they do and say what they do. If you have a disagreement, which we've had often totally fine misrepresenting it, lying it. - That's you? - Yeah. [00:36:25] That's you. And by the way, look, there's also audience capture and audience capture sometimes happens not because your whole audience wants it, but because the loudest people in the audience want it. Right. And so we we don't give in to that. And now don't take it personally, because remember the original audience capture that we knew about and didn't do [00:36:41] before anybody even knew the term and didn't give in to was when we challenged Obama from the left. And Obama, a lot of people who loved Obama and they saw us fight for him against John McCain, against Bush and Cheney, and against Hillary Clinton. If you remember, we we supported Obama in the very beginning of the primary [00:36:58] before anyone did, before any politician did against Hillary Clinton. Right. And so at that time, we lost a lot of members. Right? But that's okay, because we weren't going to do audience capture. We were going to do the right thing. So in this case, though, the other part of the problem with audience capture [00:37:14] is the I, the majority of the audience doesn't necessarily agree with the loudest voices in the audience. So sometimes they drown out a lot of folks who are just watching the show or who are members who are like, well, I don't really agree, but they're yelling really loud, and I don't want to disagree with them [00:37:32] because they're going to yell at me and I don't want to get yelled at. So in a sense, I'm standing up. Also, for the people in the audience who go, well, I kind of agree with them, but I don't want to say anything because I know I'm going to get my head taken off if I say it publicly. Right. [00:37:47] So and somebody's got to stand up for those folks too. And so look, but last thing is, is I think I said yesterday, look, guys, I get that if you I'm some calling somebody radical left or extreme left and I and and you've heard right wingers use that term, you start to wonder. [00:38:06] And that's why we're doing this. Hey, wait, does he mean me? Right? So understand. No, that's not what I mean. And I will try. I'm going to try far left now, I don't know. I don't know if I'm ever going to settle on one. But we have to because there is policy disagreements. Maybe it's not huge policy disagreements, but the right wing [00:38:24] utilizes that so effectively. And it drives me crazy. So but it doesn't mean that I want to push you away. And it doesn't mean that you're not part of this community. Jordan's part of this community. Everybody, our hosts that disagree with me are part of the community. The audience is, etc. [00:38:39] But but it's also okay to say, hey, Jake, you're far left on gun control. I'm far left on trans issues. I'm moderate on this. You're moderate on that. That's not the end of the world, guys. We have to be. And and when we disagree a little bit and, and we push [00:38:59] people out and the right wing. So the right wing reaction to me is they're like, dude, you're anti-war and anti-corruption. Oh, see, he turned after the election. I'm like, not only have I been saying that for a quarter of a century, the left has been saying that for a quarter of a century. [00:39:15] But they but the right wing doesn't even realize that because all they ever heard was the most extreme positions that the left has, right? So now they're beginning to realize, oh my God, they're anti-war and anti-corruption too. Right. So you've got to keep the dialog going. [00:39:32] And you and you also have to keep the disagreement going. You don't shut anything down. Don't push people out. The more the right wing says. Oh, and the last thought on that is they said, oh, you're anti-war, anti-corruption, you're MAGA. Okay, now I'm not MAGA, but that is their way of welcoming people, [00:39:49] even if they disagree 90%. And if one side is constantly welcoming and the other side is constantly pushing people out, you lose popular votes. Right. We had the popular vote locked in, and now all of a sudden Trump won the popular vote. Let's expand the tent. [00:40:05] Let's fight from time to time. But when we fight, let's fight on policy. Let's fight on normal good disagreements so we can get to the right answer instead of fighting on a personal way. And if you've seen me lash out and you say, well, Jake, you did it, I swear to God. [00:40:20] And it's okay if you don't believe me on any of it. But I swear to God I don't do it until the other side does it about 12 times. At some point, I go, all right, you want it, I'll give it to you, right? But but I, I would never go and lash out against someone on the left wing [00:40:38] host out of nowhere because they're like, oh, we disagree with Jake. Do you know how many people have disagreed with me through these 22 years? Millions and millions. That is not the reason for a fight. When people lie about you about 12 times, that's the reason I fight back. [00:40:55] Anyways, I hope this helped. Thank you Jordan for doing it. I wish I had the chance to read more of these. - Maybe we'll save me again for Monday. - Yeah, okay. And thank you guys for all of you for having an open mind. And that's what we're trying to do at TYT. Open minds, open hearts. Much love. We'll see you tomorrow or Monday actually. [00:41:11] Bye bye.